Notes from the Astro-RG Session
Wednesday 17th May

Masatoshi talking about the IVOA/Astro-RG joint WG meeting in Tokyo

* Projects in transition to operational phases

* Common interests
	data management for huge data
	global workflow mechanism
	authentication/authorisation
		VO -> Single Sign On
		Grid -> OGSA security

* Grid people developing "generic" middleware
	VO systems good test bed for this?

* Invite "grid people" to IVOA meetings

* Data Access
	http://www.gridforum.org/GGF17/ggf_events_ggf17.htm
	talks on astronomy & bioinformatics 
		similar architectures
		but differences on security needs

* Question from the floor
	fabio: interest from the theoretical VO in computational resources
	astrophysicists using production computation grid to do actual work
	how do you look at the VO from the "native" computational grid pov?

	Nic: already have big compute backend which can be accessed by workflow

	fabio: immediate practical and policy problems with funding for VO on this?
	
	Nic: operational & standards issue, need GGF types involved

Nic talking about Reagan Moore's (NVO) slides for the Astro-RG session

* Reagan made start at analysis paper on how IVOA is building a service
  architecture and how this maps onto the various WG in the GGF

* Notes how web service world as well, covering technologies we use and
  the languages we use them in (and the data/meta-data we're constructing)

* key issues: robustness, scalability
	e.g. VOSpace issues: OGSA naming, data replication and grid file system

Guy talking about authentication, authorisation & accounting

* AAA & the grid/GGF connection
	authentication is an IVOA interest
	authorisation is not formally an IVOA interest
		but is of interest to individual VO projects
	accounting is of general interest

* Grid world does all 3A's
	distinct lack of formal standards, all vapour
	but concrete conventions in the grid toolkits (but very unstable)

* Most relevant
	identity certificates with proxy certifications
	X509 format
	rules for processing certificate chains with proxies in
	credential handling (MyProxy)
	secured SOAP messages
	GridHTTP
	delegation of credentials
	authorisation services (PERMIS, VOMS)
	logging and accounting services (no standards?)

* IVOA SSO scheme
	use certificates!
	implementation done by AG (with actual Grid code)
	standard support
		almost impossible, nothing in the main stream tools
		and reusing the toolkits hard as they aren't very loosely coupled
		
	e.g. proxy-certificate example
		RFC3820 support (want to use JCE, but most don't support proxies)
		Need to use Java CoG kit, got RFC3820, but no JCE!

	grid stuff needs to be better factored and separable

* Questions from the floor
	Nic: should we all pick a language and one DB?
	Guy: if we have to do it all ourselves, not a win
	Guy: AR solves problem?

	Nic: authorisation model, are there VO "blockers"? 
	Guy: quiet, points of detail, either given up or agree

	fabio: would it be possible to have once a user has a certificate coming from 
	the Grid world, is the certificate portable?
	Guy: yes

	Nic: issue, need to know how "strong" certificates map into the VO world.
	need to make it clear what services you get from what sort of certificates,
	only possible place to put this in the registry?

	Guy: Make the people running proxy services a Grid CA?

	Nic: time scales?
	Guy: authenticate to a VO services to a "big iron" grid (September?)
		authenticate to a "normal" service (July?)

Discussion of interfaces between the VO and the GGF

* Nic: The AAA problem is a good example of something concrete for a VO/GGF
	interface project

* Nic: Clear that the VO will be running on hardware not internal to the VO

* General discussion summed up by the need to get "the proper" GGF people 
  at the IVOA meetings. Call for people to ask around and contact people they
  know in the grid community

Comments from Fabio on INAF experience in Grid projecs

* GRID.IT project
	italian VO funded on Grid money
	specific work packages
	G-DSE (grid data source engine)
		something that can work in the production grid
		maps onto globus 2.4
		prototype ready, needs re-engineering for robustness
	G-ICS (for monitoring instrumentation)
	DRACO
		grid portal designed for astrophysical applications
		astronomical grid using EG standards
		has sandbox for testing
	Plank simulations in EGEE
		whole mission, 2 complete surveys, 74 detectors
	Training and dissemination
		how to train?

Comments on the state of grid work at ESA/ESAC from Christophe

* Building (built?) a grid at ESAC
	for scientists to use
	support to projects for pipelining data processing
	using the standard grid layers and the SUN grid engine and globus 4
	
* Divided into two, because of firewall issues
	VO grid on external network (with data archives)
	internal grid (existing)
	external grid has around 10 nodes running RHEL

* faced with the problem of installing all the astronomical software on the grid side

* grid & the vo
	long term goal
		esa vo as a data provider and processing centre close to the datat
	use grid with vo protocols
		e.g. build a vospace	

* VOQuest
	cross-matching
		scale problems
			 plastic to topcat for small jobs,
 			link to grid for large jobs